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Tiny Face Off

Posted: 07 Oct 2010, 11:42
by elypter
i just want to say that i am making a tiny version of face off. Not that someone starts the same thing, which would be wasted time. right now im at about 30% but i don't have any good looking area yet to show you.

it is complete now. no fine tuning in tyfo army lite yet but it should be playable.


Re: Tiny Face Off

Posted: 08 Oct 2010, 19:18
by BenMillard
Glad it's you who will be doing this for the first time. You did great with Tiny Tiny Town.
  • Make sure the jumps still work.
  • Fix the missing tiles from incomplete slopes in SW.
  • A huge amount of West-East distance could be chopped out.
  • Quite a lot of North-West distance can be removed.
  • Some re-arrangement may be needed within complex area.
  • Could remove routes people never use to cut it down further.
  • Some parts of this level are quite dead and very rarely used. Shrinking those areas a lot might make bring them into normal gameplay?
  • Will you remove Invulnerability and replace Invisibility with something else?
I'm not a great fan of Face Off so probably won't make an Arena out of it.

Re: Tiny Face Off

Posted: 09 Oct 2010, 00:20
by elypter
BenMillard wrote:Glad it's you who will be doing this for the first time. You did great with Tiny Tiny Town.
  • Make sure the jumps still work.
  • Fix the missing tiles from incomplete slopes in SW.
  • A huge amount of West-East distance could be chopped out.
  • Quite a lot of North-West distance can be removed.
  • Some re-arrangement may be needed within complex area.
  • Could remove routes people never use to cut it down further.
  • Some parts of this level are quite dead and very rarely used. Shrinking those areas a lot might make bring them into normal gameplay?
  • Will you remove Invulnerability and replace Invisibility with something else?
I'm not a great fan of Face Off so probably won't make an Arena out of it.
my plan at the moment is to make it look as much as face off only smaller.
when this is completed i will make a mod with rearranged weapons. If it turns out that this "revives" dead areas of the map i will probably only make minor changes in the gmp. If the map still needs some gameplay improvements i will think about deleting or modifying some areas.

Re: Tiny Face Off

Posted: 09 Oct 2010, 16:22
by BenMillard
If you make a version with maximum ammo, instantly respawning weapons and always respawn player on a good weapon, I'll probably let you call it Tiny Face Off Arena.

There are way too many dead areas and long routes to decent weapons for me to stay faithful to the original. I'd want to change so much it would feel like a different level.

Re: Tiny Face Off

Posted: 22 Nov 2010, 01:43
by BenMillard
Did you make any progress with this? I've found Tiny Hidden Surprise Arena so frustrating, with all the bugs and desync. Tiny Face Off is all yours.

Re: Tiny Face Off

Posted: 22 Nov 2010, 10:58
by elypter
i did not work on it recently. half of the map is almost complete and for the other half the buildings are already resized. i hope i will find time to work on it again soon.

Re: Tiny Face Off

Posted: 20 Jan 2011, 20:19
by BenMillard
Someone asked me to build this, probably near Xmas 2010. But I don't want to, this original level has really lame architecture, bad layout and big unused areas.

Would be too hard for me to shrink it whilst staying true to the original. I'd end up cutting half the areas out, most likely!

Re: Tiny Face Off

Posted: 21 Jan 2011, 02:23
by elypter
gmp progress is about ~80%

i am currently working on tiny tiny town army and bc awkward cargo

i will continue it when i don't want to script anymore.

Re: Tiny Face Off

Posted: 22 Feb 2011, 23:54
by elypter
i finally did the last steps to make it releaseable. try it out and have fun!

Re: Tiny Face Off

Posted: 24 Feb 2011, 09:28
by BenMillard
That geometry has potential - will test it as soon as I can after work tonight. (With you, if you're online. G/F coming over later so might not get many games in.)

Did you make a CONVEYOR for the belt which leads to Health and Electrogun? Could add CONVEYOR for the other belts as well, to give them a sound. The sound only comes from the central point, so might be worth using several shorter ones, like MultiSlayer Ship does. Making them join properly can be fiddly but worth it. Don't make them too short as the sound can get very loud!

Will you make this a heavily feature-packed level with scripting? If so, might be worth me making a Tiny Face Off Arena variant of it... we'll see how it plays first though! (Would be like what I did with TTTA, after seeing your tiny version.)

(EDIT) Why the hell is this 2.6MB with a new ste2.sty file? And you forgot to optimise the GMP, btw. The preview image alone is half a megabyte. :shock:

(EDIT2) More feedback, given mostly in Game Hunter already:
  1. Hole on approach to rockets, SE
  2. All respawns to be reviewed
  3. Hole in exit tunnel from South vehicle guns
  4. Invis is on a roof
  5. Traffic gets stuck in a few places
  6. A couple of 2-lane original roads are still 2-lane roads... maybe 1-lane would be too hard over the bridges and would make the small South loops seem more significant than they should and the long one across South would only go 1 way
  7. (44,194) is 90° but (44,203) is 45°
  8. You have to Flip certain tiles to make chequers tesselate in ste.sty
  9. Should (39,211) reach the floor or be removed? always looked like a bug in original
  10. Chequered yellow floor has no 1x1 variants, so may have to replace with normal yellow/green
  11. (27,212) can't be done properly... stupid ste.sty some bad mid-level white windows in beige wall just NE of there
  12. I'd tend to make (31,203) a lot less tall like, 1 block and 2 block high so you can molo over them a bit and makes the big buildings seem bigger even though they are actually smaller than Face Off originally architecture trick :P
  13. (34,217) hole in wall beneath bridge?
  14. (29,225) and (30,225) will look glitchy in-game, I should think.
  15. What will you do about (45,197)? I'd suggest ending that wall 1 block early.
This level has cheered me up; it's great for a v0.1! Just like your TTA. That's what inspired me to start making tiny originals. I've been making compact areas since... ever.

Bringing that to the originals always seemed like too much work for too little reward. Roads in tight levels was always a concern for me but careful use of traffic directions makes them play fine. Opening the editor and just doing it, like Elypter has, lets us all see what gameplay is possible.

Tiny Face Off Arena
I'll make a quick arena-style script for this, which will refer to Elypter's files. He'll include it in a future version and maintain it after that. (Maybe with some tweaks from me as well.)

In 2012 I might make my own derivative of this, with more extensive changes. Much like TTTA and the very recently THSA developments.

Re: Tiny Face Off

Posted: 24 Feb 2011, 23:51
by elypter
-i think i fixed most of what was possible including:
-made some areas bigger
-added tower objects
-instant initialization, crash still possible maybe
-cleaned up inside of some buildings
-made screenshot smaller

Re: Tiny Face Off

Posted: 26 Feb 2011, 02:05
by BenMillard
Cool to see these fixes - very fast responses, too! I've attached my first attempt at an arena script for your Tiny Face Off level. Thanks for including my rough Tiny Face Off Arena script in the official package.

  • Replaced the Invulnerability with Fast Reload.
  • Invisibility is now Double Damage.
  • Lots of weak weapons replaced by semi-strong weapons.
  • All weapons have maximum ammo, apart from vehicle weapons.
  • All weapons respawn instantly, apart from those which are given again when you already have them.
  • Some weak weapons are simply removed as strong weapons are nearby.
  • Most weapon positions slightly tweaked.
  • Player start positions tweaked and starting weapon is now Shotgun. (Might be fun with punch combo.)
  • There's an Instant Gang on North island.
  • SW corner was a dead zone; now has Electro Gun.
  • NE corner was a dead zone; now has Flamer.
  • North road was a dead zone; now has Armour and Rocket Launcher.
Bugs & Solutions
The level is crashing quite a lot, as happened to me with Tiny Hidden Surprise Arena. Best I can suggest is make everything as clean as possible.

You might remove traffic entirely for the next few versions. See if that helps stability.

Look for leftover zones which are now in the middle of ocean. Make sure you have some "Hospital" and "Arrest" zones, not just generic "Respawn". Dunno if it actually helps but I did it on THSA, which ended up stable.

You may have damaged the physical edges of the level from moving the terrain. Repair the actual map edge (South and West seem messy) and then remove all the map edges which got brought into your playable area.
Game Hunter wrote:<BenMillard> (30,196) is a ramp to nowhere set as Pavement...
<BenMillard> maybe make that Field
<BenMillard> uh-oh! SW has side invisible faces at Z:0
<BenMillard> there's really a LOT of mess inside some buildings... but standard levels have quite a lot as well
<BenMillard> removing all side faces from Z:0 seems an obvious risk to delete though
<BenMillard> the whole West side in fact
<BenMillard> might be where you've brought the level edge into the level middle
<BenMillard> clean all that up I'd say
<BenMillard> just eliminate all potential weirdness, after some weeks there won't be any left
<BenMillard> that's what I had to do in THSA
<BenMillard> for gameplay, I'd make the building at (73,197) into 5x1 instead of 5x2
<BenMillard> maybe make it 1 block high so can molo over it, and makes surroundings look taller
<BenMillard> remove all traffic arrows and then re-do traffic system to be as normal as possible
<BenMillard> maybe avoid putting traffic down 1-lane roads for the testing phase
<BenMillard> then if it becomes stable, try adding it back whilst keeping stability

Re: Tiny Face Off

Posted: 27 Feb 2011, 20:09
by BenMillard
Here's an attempt at creating a stable basis for development.
Unofficial pack of tidied files for testing Elypter's project.
(243.39 KiB) Downloaded 531 times
  1. All traffic was turned off, pedestrians are still present.
  2. Simplest possible 2-lane traffic added. 1-block area around all 2-lane roads has been cleared.
  3. Added 1-lane traffic but avoided low CONVEYOR in South East. Directions should reduce car starving.
  4. Switched on Vehicle Mines in South West.
  5. Turned off every CONVEYOR and made 1-lane traffic always lead away from 2-lane roads. Altered some texturing.
  6. Removed a quarter-wall feature. Closed some wall holes. Removed some invisible floors. Removed a conflicting arrow from SW; traffic now spawns naturally there.
  7. Reversed the traffic flow in SE loop; traffic now spawns naturally there. Swapped some minor weapon types around. Corrected the NE respawn location to be on top of Flamer.
  8. Lots of minor re-texturing. Added zones for traffic lights and 2 bus stops. Tweaks to a couple of weapons and NE respawn zone.
  9. Filled a couple of wall holes. Refined some texture edges. Changed roof texture near Electro so it has 1-block edges. Corrected some weapon respawn timers and ammo amounts. CONVEYOR items given a Z-axis coordinate and switched on again.
Version 8 proved stable for a couple of action-packed 15-minute games with Cops turned on. Wewt! Version 9 is to test the limits again. I might not be around much until next week, due to social stuff and my sister's birthday.

Final Fixes
SE 1-lane system was driving away from main road, the looping clockwise. Now loops anticlockwise and goes towards main road. Traffic started spawning, roadblocks sometimes appear. It's stable.

SW 1-lane system was driving away from road, then looping anticlockwise. It still is. But there was an arrow pointing the wrong way in one block, which stopped that whole 1-lane system working. Traffic started spawning, haven't seen roadblocks. It's stable.

Re: Tiny Face Off

Posted: 06 Mar 2011, 18:18
by elypter
there are 3 modes now:
Tiny Face Off: it resembles the original face off as good as possible
Tiny Face Off Arena: it has gameplay improvements in map and script and you always will find good weapons easily.
Tiny Face Off Army: it is based on Tiny Face Off and Tiny Face Off Arena. the map has many new shortcuts and working cranes, crushers and carshops + other scripting stuff. And of cause it has max waned level 6 and starts with 4.

that's what i changed at the map files:

  • all checkered floor is corrected now and it like in the first version only without errors
  • corrected some corner tiles
  • some other changes i don't remember
arena and army:
  • corrected 2 shading filters in se
  • the edge between the 2 stairs at south central has now an invisible slope so you can drive around it easily
  • flipped a tile at nw flamer
  • made tower at 44,194 like the others
  • corrected some outer edges of the southern and western buildings
  • made a paintshop out of the original invisibility building
  • the central conveyor system changed directions
  • the south is now accessible with cars and peds
  • there is a crane and a crusher too now
  • the conveyor goes through the bluish green building and in the middle there is a destructor
  • you can get on the conveyor from the central building where carbomb is now
  • in west of that there are now 3 piers. this and the previous change make that area accessible in more ways so i hope it
  • gets used more often too.
  • in north central there is now a ped bridge over the s curve. that makes it a little bit closer but also adds a shortcut to just drive over that area.
  • from that bridge there is also a way to get on the conveyor
  • the blue building east of that now has a fire ladder which allows you to get up with a car
  • that crate like building where mines are now has a ramp which allows you to jump very high
  • the far west end where invis is now got an entrance to the roofs of the east buildings
  • when you jump on the southern buildings from the ramp on the roof where you get to the original electrogun you can move around on tthem more easily.
  • the little door in central of those buildings now allows access to the roofes too and with a ramp you can also get on the estern buildings where vmg is
  • added some bus stations
  • added an invisible slope between the 2 conveyors on the way to se rocket launcher
  • added conveyor between the 2 se buildings
  • flipped some of the yellow borders where vmg is and changed the roof at the entrance.
  • ramp at 39,217 to jump on western building which also has been lowered by one block height and moved conveyor a bit
  • redesigned building at the other end of conveyor
  • made it possible to jump from tower at 43,203 to the start point building
  • added ramps and stairs to the buildings west of that to allow to jump on that tower too
  • added invisible accelerator before the fire ladder at 80,200 to be able to jump on the paintshop building and on this at
  • 81.209 and 81,213 o be able to jump to se rocket launcher crate pile
  • also added invisible accelerators on the ventilators to be able to jump on the central high tower where carbomb is (you
  • have to get on the building at 86,209 first). and the accelerators on that complex bring you to electrogun building and even to west rocket launcher.
  • extended the corner where the crusher is to add a shortcut
script changes:

  • start points are the same as in bens arena script
  • added spray shop, crane, some conveyors, crusher, destructors
  • mine&oil cleaning
  • changed weapon and powerup positions and type. im not happy with the result yet. i need some test gaming to balance weapon paths with all the new shortcuts.

Re: Tiny Face Off

Posted: 07 Mar 2011, 23:46
by BenMillard
I just tested TYFO army. Lots of interesting changes but I still find Army ruin multiplayer deathmatch. They are so powerful and dense. Never-ending, too.

This is very neat: "# in north central there is now a ped bridge over the s curve. that makes it a little bit closer but also adds a shortcut to just drive over that area."

The hidden access onto conveyors are too hidden, there. But it's a really neat feature, like a flyover but blended into a coherent pedestrian aid.

There's a long jump sequence across West buildings from Flamer towards the starting area. You can then hop across onto chequered area near Machine Gun. From there you can keep jumping East, though a really nice and tricky fan hole. But it ends when you hit a pair of tall 2x1 buildings. This could be extended even further if you could land on those buildings. It would let you get the Electrogun and continue onto CONVEYOR.

I was thinking, the West exit from that central CONVEYOR goes to the hotel with garage, near Vehicle Bomb. I drove West as fast as I could and was sad to hit into the towers. Thought I would use a "false accelerator" to do a huge jump to Electro building. Or there would just be a big ramp inside them. You could take off the roof and make it an architectural feature, a big wedge-shaped hotel with views over the marina.

These are extreme changes though, actually quite far beyond GTA2 in places... more like Carmageddon :)

I'm going on a skiing holiday for a week in the Alps. Starts this Saturday and ends next Saturday.

Re: Tiny Face Off

Posted: 09 Mar 2011, 19:40
by elypter
  • remodeled sw area
  • added entrance to roof in sw
  • added ventilators that help you with the jump at south vmg
  • added entrance to roof in se
  • remodeled those 2 2x1 buildings into a tower and also remodeled the building complex where it belongs to.
  • the jump on that building is now easier
  • placed armor and mg at every spawnpoint (which is always near a bus station)
  • placed flamer near most spawnpoints
  • moved some other weapons
  • added scripted powerups for vehicle armor, no collision, repair(spray), explosion punch, car flamethrower, tankgun,
  • jeepgun and a powerup to get army wanted level
  • you get army wanted level now only when you collect that powerup
  • several bugs and texture fixes
some screenshots of the modded areas:

Re: Tiny Face Off

Posted: 09 Mar 2011, 20:26
by BenMillard
It's continues to be an exciting project, which some really fresh ideas - big and small.
  1. Blue tower near the starting point looks awesome. Most creative use of The Village textures I've seen!
  2. The Village bits should be turned into one coherent building, not like glorified conservatories.
  3. The Village could be the new theme for entire whole city block where start points are?
  4. Ventilation units on the Scientist building are a neat touch.
  5. Army base walls as a roof across front of Scientist building are out of place. Use a Scientist texture.
  6. Redneck area is great! The vegetation growing out of walls is a excellent touch.
  7. Derelict Redneck building is a solid concept but needs better execution. Why is there a pristine water vat inside it, for example?
  8. Pleased to see my strengthening of the theme in those areas has been realised you. Done well and so quickly!
  9. You forgot to optimise tyfo-army.gmp this time.
  10. No gun at (47,199), West of start point.
  11. Some weapons gave me very little ammo. Flamethrower for example, was only 30 or so. Vehicle Machine Guns had about 10 ammo.
  12. A lot of places only have useless weapons, so they'll go back to being dead areas. Pistol, Dual Pistol, Grenades, Shotgun... nobody drives out of their way for those.
  13. Biggest building you have to drive around in THSA is about 4x7 cubes. Tiny Face Off has a few bigger than that, so maybe could be tinier whilst staying true to original?
Army version is deviating so far from Face Off that it's simply not Face Off any more. Some of the new routes look like becoming new dead areas. Expanding the playing area of a Tiny level variant also seems a bit counter-productive. ;)

Tiny Face Off Arena
Elypter has reserved tyfo-arena.gmp for me to change as I please, independently from his tyfo* landscapes. Here's an update to the arena, adding Scientist textures to the floor of SE loop. Slightly tidied the textures on a couple of buildings elsewhere.
Unofficial update to Tiny Face Off Arena version, for Elypter to review.
(144.1 KiB) Downloaded 435 times
Won't be around Thursday evening due to a music gig with some friends. Friday evening will most likely be last-minute fine details about travel. I head to Alps on Saturday and will return on the next Saturday.

So I will hopefully be online and blogging whilst idle in Game Hunter on Sunday 20th March 2011.

Re: Tiny Face Off

Posted: 09 Mar 2011, 22:16
by Sektor
It's fun. I played Army but got sick of seeing CHOCTASTIC.

Re: Tiny Face Off

Posted: 09 Mar 2011, 23:04
by elypter
i changed the floor and the road a bit. i think it looks much better that way.

Re: Tiny Face Off

Posted: 09 Mar 2011, 23:06
by elypter
Sektor wrote:It's fun. I played Army but got sick of seeing CHOCTASTIC.
that was a debug thing i forgot to delete. it's gone in this release