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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:41 am 
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I recently got a message from a tool-maker. They requested that I do more to credit their role in what I make as a hobby by promoting their tool more frequently and in more places.

The links for tools change over time. I have 9 maps for GTA2 released on my website, when counting each map pack as 1 map. I use 5-10 tools to manipulate the data in each of them. Should I credit each of those tools? Where and in what format? Maintaining hundreds of web links to short-lived locations is a problem I opted out of some years ago.

All my readme files credit Sektor for maintaining the social infrastructure of our hobby. They also thank R* games for releasing their in-house tools and docs. Modders who provide novel and extensive code, graphics or ideas also get credit in the readme. This usually isn't on the web page or forum topic...it's a bit like the way licenses are distributed with free software.

Scientists and academics give credit and acknowledgement to each other, following centuries of convention. It would be sad if us hobbyists started requiring that from each other, imho.

Then again, a big motivation to make stuff for a hobby is seeing it spread to a wider audience and receiving positive comments about what you've achieved. (Enjoying the end result directly with other people is my favourite part, fwiw.)

Discuss: What is fair credit for GTA2 tool makers - and other mod contributors?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:37 pm 
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That message was from me, not from they.

I simply asked from you to put a link to my editor (my thread or whatever where you can find it), in a more public place than a (note: a) changelog of a map, since you love my screenshot maker so much! But that was too much to ask from you, wasnt it? Well, obviously, or else there wouldnt been any whiny topics about it here. Any respectful guy would have just added a credit instead of whining here about it. I dont care if you dont credit everyone in a readme or forum topic, but a map downloading webpage is good place for that, not just because of my ego, but for other people to find the tools you are using, so they can also enjoy using them. Just like Sektor did: http://gtamp.com/maps/ - And guess what? He didnt even make whiny topics here about it. Same with http://gtamp.com/gta2/tools/, again, no whiny topics made at all! Why? Well, i think Sektor just has some balls. ;) Or he just isnt mad.

We can continue this further in my topic: What is Fair Amount of Being Mad for GTA2 Tool Makers?

BenMillard wrote:
Then again, a big motivation to make stuff for a hobby is seeing it spread to a wider audience and receiving positive comments about what you've achieved.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJxCFa8YmbQ&t=1m15s - i just love how you answered your own question, hurray!

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:59 pm 
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Also:

BenMillard (08.07.2011) wrote:
TradeMark, your zone editor has a really good GUI! I used it to re-work all the zones in the GTA1 London 1969 conversion.
BenMillard (10.12.2011) (PM) in response of not wanting to give any credit to my tools, wrote:
I'm still tending to use Delfi's tools, out of habit if nothing else. The GUI of your editor takes a lot of getting used to, although I would agree it's "nicer" in many ways.

What are you smoking?

Nah, youre only bitching at me, because, oh yes umad.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:12 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:58 pm 
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I only credit what is relevant. I admit I do credit Sektor for GH and these forums as its a nice central location for all of us to come together and distribute maps and stuff.

Other than that, I credit testers mainly. Some of my old maps I used to detail what tools I used but back then it wasn't necessary as it was mostly official tools from DMA and then later on Delfi's programs.

I always thought on Ben's web page under GTA2 Tools and Editors is what Ben used for levels rather than what's available. Also by the looks of it it hasn't been updated in a while anyway.

Also TM, it looks like its you who whine about stuff an awful lot. People give you feedback and criticism and you take it personally. People who don't agree with you you think they are wrong and you're making a massive fuss over not having a link/reference on Ben's website. And before you try and twist my words, I admire the fact the tools you make but you shouldn't take everything personally. You're making a big fuss over a trivial matter tbh.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:10 pm 
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Pyro wrote:
you're making a massive fuss over not having a link/reference on Ben's website.
FUCK NO! the fact that if there is a link or not, isnt the issue here.

The fuss here is about the fact that: I PM Ben, Ben says: "i dont use your tools, *trollface*" and makes this thread because he doesnt want to credit me. That is a massive brain-lock for me, i just cant understand some people like Ben; he credits 250 people for quickly testing a map, but has huge personal issues for crediting the people who makes tools that made it possible/easier to make that fucking map (and all the nice screenshots he keeps talking are so damn nice). That is Ben's issue here, i quote how much he hates to give credit to GTA2 tool makers:
BenMillard wrote:
Scientists and academics give credit and acknowledgement to each other, following centuries of convention. It would be sad if us hobbyists started requiring that from each other, imho.
Wow, just wow.

This is a fight for the survival of GTA2 tools, people like Ben make it sure i will never release my source codes; some guy like Ben would just take the code and release it under his own name, because he feels: "It would be sad if us hobbyists started requiring that from each other, imho.". in other words: i do whaeva i want.

--

I didnt PM You or anyone else because i dont even know anyone who has a GTA2 website like Ben has, and he is pretty much the only one with so many screenshots by my tools, and i thought it would be a good idea to update the list of tools with my tool in it, but NO... instead we get this whiny drama here; and im pretty sure thats what he wanted!

Another option i gave to him - and therefore to all of you - is that i will add a huge watermark on my editor, such as Kamil did for his minimaps, if not replaced by mine yet, without any watermark btw!, which i dont mind, but i would appreciate that the creator of those minimaps (my tool) was mentioned somewhere in the documents, as Kamil was mentioned for his work directly on the images; i used a lot more work to build a tool for automating the process than Kamil did for all of his images, if you think thats less worth of crediting, then, you simply are wrong, So, if you think its OK to credit Kamil who made minimaps from maps by hand, then you would think its OK to credit me from building a tool that automates the same process. I did not add a watermark, because i trusted people enough to give credit to me from using my tool. But, people like Ben, again, just piss the fuck out of me. I ask him nicely, and this is what happens, huge fucking drama over the simpliest things on life!

PS: I dont require anyone to credit me on the images from my editor as a watermark format, but it would be appreciated that i was mentioned somewhere, not in the image itself. just in the same place like you credit everybody else. I am no less worth than some random player who comes and tests a map of yours; thats the message what Ben's reaction gave to me: im not worthy enough to be mentioned.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:22 pm 
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Pyro wrote:
You're making a big fuss over a trivial matter tbh.
I AM?? LOOK AT WHAT BEN DID. ARE YOU BLIND? nah, you and Ben are IRL friends, of course you always come here to defend him, so your opinions are pretty much empty here.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:46 pm 
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I love it how the topic title separates GTA2 tool makers from other GTA2 community members, as if we were any different to be treaten. I mean, seriously!?

Also the wording "fair", lol. Ben feels its unfair to mention my tool which he uses extensively, and yet claims he loves it? But still unfair to add my nick in the "contributors" list.

Troll topic is troll topic. No can do. I'll be waiting here when Ben comes back and says he was just joking and so forth :)

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:49 am 
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Seriously what the fuck? You should have made it much clearer from the beginning about your point than throw a massive fit and wall of text. Personally, I've used your editor to make one (1) screenshot for my Bootcamp map (since it's about the only map I've made since I came back to modding and that is now quite a while ago), will you have a go at me for not crediting you in readme?

T.M. wrote:
I AM?? LOOK AT WHAT BEN DID. ARE YOU BLIND? nah, you and Ben are IRL friends, of course you always come here to defend him


I've known Ben for quite a long time, yes and we even argue over various things. Granted, a reference would be nice for someone who uses it heavily but that's not for me to decide.

T.M. wrote:
so your opinions are pretty much empty here.


Really? Yet again you over dramatise things and you ignore other peoples opinions if they don't match your own. Do you not like getting feedback/criticism or something? That's how stuff is improved :roll:

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 1:55 am 
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T.M. wrote:
I am no less worth than some random player who comes and tests a map of yours; thats the message what Ben's reaction gave to me: im not worthy enough to be mentioned.

It isn't like that.

BenMillard wrote:
Should I credit each of those tools? Where and in what format?

TM wrote:
LOOK AT WHAT BEN DID. ARE YOU BLIND?

All I did was ask a fair and open question; one which I take seriously and which affects the whole community.

In the UK, we have a saying: "You got the wrong end of the stick."

I hope cooler minds can put this thread on-topic again.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:05 am 
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Pyro wrote:
will you have a go at me for not crediting you in readme?
Stop trolling me, please. I already explained its not about crediting my ego. ... i already explained this... i am not going to repeat myself.

Pyro wrote:
T.M. wrote:
so your opinions are pretty much empty here.

Really? Yet again you over dramatise things and you ignore other peoples opinions if they don't match your own. Do you not like getting feedback/criticism or something? That's how stuff is improved :roll:
Heh, i am right on this one. I dont ignore just everyone's opinions, but i do ignore those people opinions that are corrupted. Thats why the judges never judge their friends, nor the police never inspect their friends crimes, and so forth.

I just have a strong will. If you feel i ignore everyone who does not agree with me, you are wrong. I accept them when they convince me first, either by a group of people saying the same opinion, or by pure facts. I feel like you and Ben feels that you should be right about every opinion, for example if i get some design tips, and i dont like them, you instantly assume that i just ignore it because they dont match to my opinions, no, thats not how i tick.

BenMillard wrote:
All I did was ask a fair and open question; one which I take seriously and which affects the whole community.
The thing is, there is nothing to discuss; you already know the answer. You already link to gtamp.com/tools for all the tools in the list you have, no need to fix "hundreds" of links.

BenMillard wrote:
In the UK, we have a saying: "You got the wrong end of the stick."

I hope cooler minds can put this thread on-topic again.
Heh, you mean i misunderstood you? Of course! You are the perfect nice boy attitude now! Thats the lamest thing i already expected you to come here and say at me. Know what, i know all these tricks your type of people throw at me. Go back to IRC talk shit behind my back, and then come here to act the prince of wonderlands again, the nice boy who wants to be friends with everyone.

This is something nobody in this community has had the balls to say in your face: I have been thinking to put you on my ignore list from around the fourth post i saw from you ever. Does that mean i have misunderstood you ever since? Even when your posts werent related to me at all? And you mean i have some sick ideas in my head and illusions about only you on this community? Yeah, right. If that makes you feel any better. There are numerous of people who have said you are not normal, and those actually came to me in private, after i had had other crazy argues with you before. But because you are crazy, i have lived in hope that the next message is sane again, and thus, you are not in my ignore list, not just yet.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:26 am 
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So, you're saying my opinions are 'corrupted'? Some of the things, for example, you want to put in your map viewer are just outlandish and not needed and I gave you feedback which you then decided it was some sort of personal attack against you? Right... Besides, I don't give 'less' feedback/criticism to people I know and never have - if I have a point to make then I'll say it with reason but greatly depends on what it is or about. If I don't say it somebody else usually will in time. Likewise, just saying "no" to a suggestion is equally useless.

In a community this small the feedback is pretty essential imo, good and bad. We all have ideas, designs, suggestions and more but can't please everyone, but recently things just get out of hand.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:57 am 
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I honestly cannot help but facepalm to this. It's just a stupid discussion about adding someone's name on a readme or something similar when releasing a map.

Seriously T.M., you're overreacting on this. Yeah, of course it's bad to get your tool used a little for a map (adding/changing zones, taking screenshots, etc) and not getting credited anywhere in the pack. Fine. But you're not going to solve the problem by whining in 3 LONG posts in a row (twice!) about "how he should have at least added my name in this blablablabla" and how "hemad" (specially when clearly you are actually mad, not him) for creating a topic asking what would we all consider fair credit blablabla. Dude, just have a nice, calm and polite talk with him, maybe privately telling him what you need to tell, but STOP BITCHING (these last two words being not only for T.M. but for everyone who posted here)! It's. Just. About. Adding. Your. Name. On. A. Fucking. Map. File. What's so bad about it? You can just ask him, no matter how many times you need, to add it anywhere there until he does so and stop complaining.

Ben, just add his nick/name somewhere in the maps you actually used his editor for anything (screenshots, adding/editing zones, etc) and then END OF STORY.

IS IT SO FUCKING HARD TO FINISH THIS DISCUSSION? NO IT IS NOT. OR WAS IT?

Also, TM, please notice I'm not on Ben's side on this neither I am in your side. If you don't believe this line, read everything I said again. Then again, again and again until you realize that.

After all of this I can't do anything else but:
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:32 am 
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Are we done now? We'll see :P


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:51 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 1:05 pm 
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Gustavob wrote:
I honestly cannot help but facepalm to this. It's just a stupid discussion about adding someone's name on a readme or something similar when releasing a map.
Thats what i said! My head explodes when even thinking why this thread exists. THATS WHY IM MAD.

Gustavob wrote:
Also, TM, please notice I'm not on Ben's side on this neither I am in your side.
I know.

Maybe im a little bit mad. :o


Less than Ben tho. :roll:

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:03 pm 
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Pyro wrote:
Are we done now? We'll see :P

We used to be then we took arrows to our knees

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:12 pm 
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if nothing helps:
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:15 pm 
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T.M. wrote:
Gustavob wrote:
I honestly cannot help but facepalm to this. It's just a stupid discussion about adding someone's name on a readme or something similar when releasing a map.
Thats what i said! My head explodes when even thinking why this thread exists. THATS WHY IM MAD.

  1. Many people are affected by this, not just one.
  2. Many maps are affected, maybe up to 100.
  3. The "or something similar" is the whole point. That can add up to a lot of admin, reducing creative time.
  4. These are things I was asking in the first message. Still hoping for some on-topic responses.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:59 pm 
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why not just put the required stuff for that together: a list of tools with credit to their authors.

then everyone can copy paste together what he needs or wants to have in their readme files.

on-topic-example: jed pakx readme
http://gta2dare.omnitude.net/_jed/02_re ... d_pakx.txt

off-topic example: i have a description for each file in game pakx:
http://elypter.net84.net/forum/index.php?topic=77.0

there is no need to discuss what is "fair". just do something to improve the situation if you think that is important.

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