GTAMP

If you talk about Win 98 SE, then maybe:

GTA2 Map Editor XP ? :D
Why not like the MS or Embarcadero?

VS2008, VS2010, Embarcadero Rad Studio 2010, Rad Studio XE.
Instead of XE use SE, it think its good enough.

GTA2 Map Editor 2011.
GTA2 Map Editor SE.


I think most user don't care, and it's enough for them to know that it's not the old DMA one but completely new.

I personally hate all those Microsoft product naming. It bloats the name length and only adds catchwords to sound professional and expensive. It also makes it harder to find with search engines because everyone uses a different abbreviation.

just keep it simple:

GTA2 map maker
GTA2 map creator
GTA2 map designer
GTA2 map architect
GTA2 map builder
GTA2 map constructor
GTA2 map composer
GTA2 map assembler
GTA2 map forge

If you want to keep it simple, then:

GTA2 Map Editor

Period.

B-$hep wrote:I think most user don't care, and it's enough for them to know that it's not the old DMA one but completely new.

i care about the uniqueness of the name because then its easy to find by google.

B-$hep wrote:If you want to keep it simple, then:

GTA2 Map Editor

Period.

i cant use the original neutral name either, or people woudnt be able to differ it from the DMA editor and my editor.

"use the gta2 map editor! you mean the TM's editor or DMA editor? i mean TM's editor!!" that kind of problems will cause.

Search for TM's GTA2 Editor and you already find this tool.

DMA Editor is very easy on CPU and has oodles of tools to make common mapping tasks fast. The UI is very Windows-like, with natively styles Win32 controls used wherever possible. It isn't perfect, but it's pretty close. Providing that GUI with your better rendering and built-in script support would be a winning map editor.

TradeMark wrote:

Pyro wrote:Any progress with actually making the block editor then?

nope, but whats the hurry? doesnt dma editor work good enough? i dont think anyone would use my version anyways since people arent even using the epic script editor AFAIK. (except elypter and sektor and gustavob). so its not motivating me enough to actually do some other editor nobody will use.

Told you so.

OK, OK, now I'll try to be constructive: making your tools more usable and less weird will make them more widely used. In terms of engineering, they truly are epic. But they aren't as easy to use as the alternatives. That's due to the many small reasons which you've already been given throughout this thread.

Pay attention to the feedback and solve it nicely for the user, not for yourself. Focus attention on what is actually needed by many people. Create intelligent, intuitive solutions to make those things easier than what people currently do. That long, difficult process will eventually turn these millions of code lines of into a suite of creative tools which become a cornerstone of our little community.

i dont know whats weird in my editor, so i cant fix it.

TradeMark wrote:nope, but whats the hurry? doesnt dma editor work good enough?

Yes, the DMA Editor is "good enough" but it is far too ancient and doesn't work properly on any machine that isn't running Windows 98, such as not able to render the tile list properly and crashing when doing various things (I think the zone editor makes it crash as well as object placement). Even then the DMA Editor was un-finished and has features which don't work (again, the object placement and the likes).

As we all know, we are using DMA's own "in-house" software and I bet if they saw GTA2 now they'd be quire surprised how long it has been going on for! If they didn't release it I wonder if anyone would have made a GTA2 map editor all those years ago? Probably... but we'll never know!

Going back to your statement of the DMA Editor being "good enough", why bother doing this project at all if the original was "good enough"? I thought this project was to make a better replacement to the original instead of using the old one as a "it'll do for now" job. Besides, I think a LOT of people are hoping for this to become a proper map editor rather than just a map preview tool with the ability to edit/make zones. As I said before, while the features you add are cool and all, it still doesn't let me make/edit maps! That's the point of calling it a map editor!

TradeMark wrote:i dont think anyone would use my version anyways since people arent even using the epic script editor AFAIK. (except elypter and sektor and gustavob). so its not motivating me enough to actually do some other editor nobody will use.

See my last statement. And as a matter of fact, I find the script editor very useful and lets me plan stuff properly in the scripts.

As for your comment on "nobody will use it", you must be aware (well, I hope you are) that there are very few GTA2 players and even fewer mappers/scripters/modders to cater to them. Technically, your program is targeted at a very specific group to do a specific purpose. Right now, since we can't make/edit maps in your program we have to switch between the DMA Editor and your one, from making the map to then seeing where stuff is in script etc. This is why one editor would be perfect so we could finally put the old editor to rest.

I can't motivate you any more than getting the satisfaction from the people who will be using it. We're not expecting it to work 100% right off the bat nor expect it fully complete in less than a week. This is where we can help with your testing and constructive feedback and constructive criticism. As Ben said, and pretty much nailed it, make the program usable by all rather than yourself as an individual.

This is not meant to bash your work but I offer feedback when necessary, both the good and the bad stuff. I hope this helps.

Edit -

Another suggestion for a name: GTA2 World Builder

my motivation is not coming from gta2, nor gta2 players, nor being the one who makes an editor for gta2. in fact, the only reason im programming is to learn new things... and even that is getting boring to me, so, practically youre asking me to do stuff against my will. its same as if i asked you to do a full-size gta2 map for us, because we want a map, and nobody has made any good full-size maps, thus you should make it because you're good at making maps. and we're waiting!

i tried to ask for some extra motivation here, twice i think... but it backfired into ben's comments to make me shut up and not expect anything in return from my hard work, so...

i think i've said this before: the only thing i get from you people is comments... if nobody sends any comments, i stop caring. this is not just my problem, it's everyones problem who does free stuff, writes blogs, or anything. too many people think "others will comment for me, im too lazy", even i do that, but not when i am excited about some others project, so the lack of comments only tells me that (almost) nobody cares, so i stop caring too and forget the project... why would i continue updating the packages just for you guys so you can be happy?

it was a surprise you said you use my script editor, i thought you never used it for real. this is what im talking about comments: im totally clueless if anyone even uses my editor.

Pyro wrote:Another suggestion for a name: GTA2 World Builder

cant use "World Builder" either since its already a common map editor widely used.

Hey TradeMark!

Your post rings in harmony with many FOSS project issues. Many people don't get it. They treat passionate coders as a company and think of themselves as clients and think they are entitled to demand anything. Not so. As you know, that just discourages the coder.

Your reason for coding the GTA2 Map Editor is as good as any. If you feel you have reached the end of the line as far as learning is concerned (is that ever possible?), then how about opening up the source code of your editor? In fact I don't see the point in keeping code closed for any reason other than trying to sell it, but that is clearly not the case here. I know from practice that opening up your code can be very rewarding.

The only reason I haven't made any GTA2 maps was because of the terrible instability of the GTA2 Map Editor on my machine+winxp combination. I used to have much more time than I do now, but I still think that if there was a more polished map editor available, as yours could be, then I'd find the time to use it. I'm sure there are many people out there like me. Europe and the Americas aside, think of all those Asians we only ever hear about or see on youtube.

Do what makes you happy TradeMark, but don't think that your work will go unnoticed and unappreciated. Sadly, often the loudest people are the ones with the least to say and the quickest to foam around the mouth. I'm not necessarily saying that that is the case here, but then again I don't follow this thread ;] Oh, and if you decide to call it quits, please open up your source code!

I think the gta2 modding community can consider itself very happy to have people making such great tools. Together with Bshep, Jernej and Cuban Pete we almost have more coders than modders XD. All i can say is thanks for everyting you created already regardless if you continue or not.

DrSlony wrote:Your post rings in harmony with many FOSS project issues. Many people don't get it. They treat passionate coders as a company and think of themselves as clients and think they are entitled to demand anything. Not so. As you know, that just discourages the coder.

Exactly. And when the "company" asks for money, everyone runs away... Thanks for your sympathy

elypter wrote:I think the gta2 modding community can consider itself very happy to have people making such great tools.

True!

TradeMark wrote:...
practically youre asking me to do stuff against my will
...

What? Since when did you get this idea? If you can't accept suggestions and constructive feedback/criticism then this really isn't the thing for you tbh. I for one am not saying "you must do XYZ by ABC as I know what should be in it" because that would be stupid and very rude of me. I fully realise you are doing this as both a learning experience and experimentation in coding and I like that and understand where you're coming from.

TradeMark wrote:its same as if i asked you to do a full-size gta2 map for us, because we want a map, and nobody has made any good full-size maps, thus you should make it because you're good at making maps. and we're waiting!

I don't think you can compare making a full blown program to map making in GTA2. However, assuming some people did ask me to make a full city-sized map they would expect it would take X amount of time with getting testing as it goes on, feedback and all sorts. In both cases, you making your editor and me making a map we both are individuals and, at the end of the day, it is our hobbies so it doesn't feel like a chore to do. Sure, when I make maps I get irritated and bored thinking "this takes forever to do/get right" but I usually leave it alone for a while and come back with a fresh look. It takes time but we get there in the end!

TradeMark wrote:i tried to ask for some extra motivation here, twice i think... but it backfired into ben's comments to make me shut up and not expect anything in return from my hard work, so...

Again, I am not sure how I personally could motivate you. You mentioned before about a donation and I mentioned that I would be willing to donate once some sort of map editor feature works. I can't speak for Ben but from what I know he knows a lot more about user-interfaces and the likes than I do but we are both modders, hence giving feedback/suggestions to you (good and bad).

TradeMark wrote:i think i've said this before: the only thing i get from you people is comments... if nobody sends any comments, i stop caring.

Isn't that what you want though? Comments and feedback for your program? If no-one did, then this thread would be a lot shorter and you would have more than likely stopped programming this a long time ago. I only send comments when I need to/encounter things or when there is an update and when it's relevant. As I said in my last post, there are not many modders out there, and fewer who come to this forum who will post feedback/comments.

TradeMark wrote:too many people think "others will comment for me, im too lazy"

Well I'm not "other people". My last statement says how and when I comment. If others can't/won't post feedback/suggestions and then complain, it's their fault and not yours.

TradeMark wrote:so the lack of comments only tells me that (almost) nobody cares, so i stop caring too and forget the project... why would i continue updating the packages just for you guys so you can be happy?

See above. No one is forcing you to do this. This also goes back to the original DMA Editor being "good enough"; we are all hoping you can carry this further and make it into a true map editor in time. If you decide to stop, I'll be sorry to hear that but that's the way it goes.

TradeMark wrote:it was a surprise you said you use my script editor, i thought you never used it for real. this is what im talking about comments: im totally clueless if anyone even uses my editor.

I really do like your script editor, makes life a million times easier actually seeing exactly where stuff will be rather than typing the script, compiling it, loading GTA2, finding the place only to see it's off-set or not done correctly and then coming back and doing it all over again. Like my comment about my feedback, just because I don't comment on it every day doesn't mean I don't use/care about it. Usually the people who are the quietest are the most happy/satisfied with something

TradeMark wrote:

DrSlony wrote:Your post rings in harmony with many FOSS project issues. Many people don't get it. They treat passionate coders as a company and think of themselves as clients and think they are entitled to demand anything. Not so. As you know, that just discourages the coder.

Exactly. And when the "company" asks for money, everyone runs away... Thanks for your sympathy

As I've stated a lot here, I'm not "demanding" anything. It's your hobby and project at the end of the day. As for asking for money, well, that can be a mixed response from people and most won't donate unless they really support the project/whatever it is. I donate to various sites every so often myself, and as I said earlier, I am willing to donate to you in future once a map editor is under way.

So there we have it. I hope you carry on with this as you've done an awful lot of work with it so far. Hopefully this is just a rough patch you are going through. This should be a hobby and not a job to get this done!

For me everything in the modding community seemed ok except that there are just too few and that there are even fewer to follow because there are too few players too.

I do not get more feedback than you for my projects and maps than you and i understand you and often feel the same but it is also because of the little amount of modders and that the modders themself also do not get much reward too.

Pyro wrote:

TradeMark wrote:...
practically youre asking me to do stuff against my will
...

What? Since when did you get this idea? If you can't accept suggestions and constructive feedback/criticism then this really isn't the thing for you tbh. I for one am not saying "you must do XYZ by ABC as I know what should be in it" because that would be stupid and very rude of me. I fully realise you are doing this as both a learning experience and experimentation in coding and I like that and understand where you're coming from.

Sorry, i often forget that in english there is no such word as "you" in means of many people, so nothing personal. You always have good feedback here, thanks for that. I dont care what kind of comments i get tbh, if i just know someone is thinking something, thats good enough for me, just to keep me informed. There are too many projects out there which suffer from this directly; bugs wont get fixed because people think its not important and maybe someone else will report it. etc...

Pyro wrote:

TradeMark wrote:its same as if i asked you to do a full-size gta2 map for us, because we want a map, and nobody has made any good full-size maps, thus you should make it because you're good at making maps. and we're waiting!

I don't think you can compare making a full blown program to map making in GTA2. However, assuming some people did ask me to make a full city-sized map they would expect it would take X amount of time with getting testing as it goes on, feedback and all sorts. In both cases, you making your editor and me making a map we both are individuals and, at the end of the day, it is our hobbies so it doesn't feel like a chore to do. Sure, when I make maps I get irritated and bored thinking "this takes forever to do/get right" but I usually leave it alone for a while and come back with a fresh look. It takes time but we get there in the end!

Yeah, its not even nearly the same at all... was just simple example anyone here could relate to. even though its just a hobby, programming has more of these irritating moments, must-do things you have to do to get anything done.

Pyro wrote:

TradeMark wrote:too many people think "others will comment for me, im too lazy"

Well I'm not "other people". My last statement says how and when I comment. If others can't/won't post feedback/suggestions and then complain, it's their fault and not yours.

the problem is they wont understand it until its too late... people will care only when they need something. and im secretly pissed off about that; people who dont comment here will probably bother to comment only when theres something to rage, they take my work for granted, but dont understand that every line of code from me is a gift for them. note: im not asking to be praised here from my work, in fact i want to avoid that.

Pyro wrote:I really do like your script editor, makes life a million times easier actually seeing exactly where stuff will be rather than typing the script, compiling it, loading GTA2, finding the place only to see it's off-set or not done correctly and then coming back and doing it all over again. Like my comment about my feedback

these are the kind of comments that keeps me motivated: i see my stuff being useful to people. Even though if you think what you said was just obvious stuff that i should already know, for me its important, since it will confirm that i did good job, if i dont get confirmations, i wont be able to really be sure was my work good or bad. sure i have my own validation on my work, but its not fun to talk to myself "good job TM" its too easy to not say the little things that keep people doing stuff, as you said you wont usually comment unless you need to. i sometimes feel like that, as if i dont want to bother the makers, but on one man projects any comment is essential to keep it going.

Pyro wrote:just because I don't comment on it every day doesn't mean I don't use/care about it

this is what only you are aware of, i cant possibly know what others are thinking if they dont say it, i cant read minds.

Pyro wrote:So there we have it. I hope you carry on with this as you've done an awful lot of work with it so far. Hopefully this is just a rough patch you are going through. This should be a hobby and not a job to get this done!

thanks.


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elypter wrote:I do not get more feedback than you for my projects and maps than you and i understand you and often feel the same but it is also because of the little amount of modders and that the modders themself also do not get much reward too.

yeah, i sometimes feel bad for others who have the same problems: lack of comments

Okay, here are some comments I wanted to place, but didn't do because I was too lazy.

//1
Did you see my name suggestions? here -> http://gtamp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4059#p4059
I think they have a nice ring to it.

//2
I like this topic a lot. Perhaps my favourite on gtamp forum. You always place post with something interesting and nice clear images about gta2 or your editor. Did I mention I love images?

//3
You have a clear eye for detail, I like for example the little nice aligned font. The script preview is very sexy. Nice font that is sharp and smooth at the same time with nice colors. Perhaps the scrollbar style does not fit the rest.

//5
To be honest, I'm not a real user of your editor. I don't create GTA2 maps/missions... yet, but I do like your editor a lot - I try each new version.

I gather a lot of feedback on my work by seeking it out it a positive way. Not making forum messages whining about how nobody's blowing smoke up my arse. (I've probably done that some years ago, though!)

For example, when I make new levels I get in GH and start sharing the link with people I know are good testers. How do I know the good testers? Because I spend time learning about the community I am making stuff for. Think of it like market research.

After some testing I assess the feedback and make changes, so my stuff gets tailored to the people who use it. Not necessarily in ways I want. I often try stuff out that I'm sure will suck. Often it does. But sometimes it's awesome and lets players find new ways to enjoy the game. It's an experimental and open-minded approach, the goal of which is to increase the fun of GTA2 gameplay for other people.

Everyone who is kind enough to test my stuff out gets credited on the web page for that project. It's a two-way street; reward and recognition goes both ways.

...there is no undo-button...

//edit. this little adjustment makes scrollbar already better looking IMO

Cuban-Pete wrote:Did you see my name suggestions? here -> http://gtamp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4059#p4059
I think they have a nice ring to it.

oh yeah, i read every message here, dont worry. i just thought its better to not whine unless its important (as i mentioned to others when they suggested stuff i CANT use). your suggestions were ok, but they just didnt feel the right

Cuban-Pete wrote:I like this topic a lot. Perhaps my favourite on gtamp forum. You always place post with something interesting and nice clear images about gta2 or your editor. Did I mention I love images?

lol thanks i never considered my posts to be that interesting. i love images too!

Cuban-Pete wrote:You have a clear eye for detail, I like for example the little nice aligned font. The script preview is very sexy. Nice font that is sharp and smooth at the same time with nice colors. Perhaps the scrollbar style does not fit the rest.

thanks again although im surprised the colors are good, since i have color sight defect myself... ever wondered wheres all the green colors? (EXCEPTION: comments color in syntax highlighting :O), most of the time i look at the numeric values of colors to know which color it is. yes i am a robot...

Cuban-Pete wrote:To be honest, I'm not a real user of your editor.

son of a... *removes all thanks* lol joking. thanks for commenting!

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BenMillard wrote:I gather a lot of feedback on my work by seeking it out it a positive way. Not making forum messages whining about how nobody's blowing smoke up my arse.

For example, when I make new levels I get in GH and start sharing the link with people I know are good testers. How do I know the good testers? Because I spend time learning about the community I am making stuff for. Think of it like market research.

well, it is easier to spam maplinks to people and tell them to just dl it and join your game, its so much easier and so much different than finding people who would actually test complicated programs like this editor (ITS REALLY BORING TO TEST PROGRAMS). Not to mention i already know the good testers, but ive sucked them empty already... anyways, i dont like to beg comments, it just feels stupid. if they dont bother coming up here, then i dont think they would actually care that much they would be interested in future testing either. ive tried to ask many people, but they have always said "ill test it later" and then forgot about it (multiple times). Salamander, im looking at you....

--

Cuban-Pete wrote:...there is no undo-button...

yeah, that is the trickiest thing to make... i didnt think of it when i started the editor (nor did i care), so it will be a lot of work to be able to add it afterwards. its been on my todo list for long time now.

Cuban-Pete wrote://edit. this little adjustment makes scrollbar already better looking IMO

scrollbar.zip

im happy someone is actually modding those files , but... i like to be able to see where the scroll area is precisely (as you said "You have a clear eye for detail"), and where is the part which can be clicked (not working yet). when i moved on Windows 7, i noticed they made it just like that, but it feels annoying to me, for some reason. maybe ive used win98/xp too long...

TradeMark wrote:

Cuban-Pete wrote:Did you see my name suggestions? here ->

BenMillard wrote:I gather a lot of feedback on my work by seeking it out it a positive way. Not making forum messages whining about how nobody's blowing smoke up my arse.

For example, when I make new levels I get in GH and start sharing the link with people I know are good testers. How do I know the good testers? Because I spend time learning about the community I am making stuff for. Think of it like market research.

well, it is easier to spam maplinks to people and tell them to just dl it and join your game, its so much easier and so much different than finding people who would actually test complicated programs like this editor (ITS REALLY BORING TO TEST PROGRAMS). Not to mention i already know the good testers, but ive sucked them empty already... anyways, i dont like to beg comments, it just feels stupid. if they dont bother coming up here, then i dont think they would actually care that much they would be interested in future testing either. ive tried to ask many people, but they have always said "ill test it later" and then forgot about it (multiple times). Salamander, im looking at you....

--

That's are 2 completely different ways of looking at it. You can look at it like a commercial product. It is their job to make a product that fulfills its promises because they owe it to their paying customers. But that doesn't fit here. A free/open source software especial for a community does not differ only by its cost. There is no distribution shell required but there are real persons behind the software and the users. If your grandma cooks something for you wouldn't say the only difference to a ready meal is that you don't have to pay for it. Yeah, you could call it "homemade software"

There is a tendency that started with the birth of the Internet. Everything gets easier to use and everyting has to be easier to use. More users join and more users take everything for granted. They think they already payed for it to the ISP and they behave like you owe them an idiot proof software. That's state of play in a widely commercialized Internet today filled up with people who do not understand it's original spirit.

You can either try to extend some peoples worldviews by telling them what FOSS is about or make sure that more people join and wait for the ones that treasure the difference of a product that has not been made under the pressure of the market. But it is not impossible, otherwise there wouldn't be anyone here probably.

elypter wrote:If your grandma cooks something for you wouldn't say the only difference to a ready meal is that you don't have to pay for it. Yeah, you could call it "homemade software"

Good way putting it

How many of you would comment the grandmas food ONLY then when it has something wrong in it that could be improved?